[he speaks a little hesitantly, like he's not sure about his phrasing.]
Um... at the beginning, he was very warm. He could be slow to catch on to some kinds of things, and he was pretty self-conscious, so it was fun to tease him. He'd get really flustered and prickly. But he really cared about sensitIV a lot, and he was protective of us. He didn't see anything wrong with playing mercilessly in games as long as it meant that we didn't get hurt, so I'd argue with him about that. It all came from a good place, though.
Things started going downhill-- well, the inciting incident was probably the House of Mirth. It hit all of us really hard. I think... there were a lot of things that came together in the weeks afterwards to make him feel-- no, I can't speak for him. Maybe he'd always held grudges, but if so, they hadn't really affected us? They started to, though, even in games. The protectiveness became a problem, too. He wouldn't ever talk to me about his feelings, and when I'd confront him about his actions he'd just say that I expected too much from him, because I was a good person and he wasn't.
Yeah, a lot of that does sound like Leviathan. Especially the protectiveness. I met him on his first day here and he already had the vibe about him that suggested he was ready to throw down to defend himself and sensitIV. He considered getting the wound-unwinding power as his first one, but I talked him into doing hand-to-hand combat training with me instead, so he could feel capable of protecting himself without resorting to... that.
Unlike Loki, though, I don't think he sees himself as a bad person. I think he can still be reasoned with, and he still wants to do right by you.
...I think it's gonna take him a lot of work to overcome his social programming, and he's probably going to mess up a lot along the way, but I really do think he's trying.
[takes another sip of tea to wash down a bite of his own sandwich.]
... not great. I guess I'm treating it as him being gone from my life for good. Breaking off the relationship. Because, I mean, even if I could see him again, I'm... not sure I'd want to. So I'm sad for the way things used to be, and part of me keeps wondering if there's more I could have done to-- I don't know. Prevent this outcome. Change things, somehow.
He's against choosing "Heaven" on principle because he's a demon in his world, which is stupid because "Heaven" is apparently just a different faction of demons. And he's convinced that he can overthrow Asmodeus from inside the system. But given the way the graduation ceremony went...
Yasuragi's an asshole. I don't like the pattern of him doing things to upset people and then Loki-san feeling like he has to defend him-- I just don't like him. I don't think he purposefully lied about loving Loki-san or anything like that, but I also don't trust him to not hurt him.
...There are a lot of people here for whom Heaven's option is not viable, for various reasons. Some have already died back where they're from, so if they go back to "their world, as they left it," it may just mean dying again, forever. And some people, like me, have a home worse than here, or don't have a home to return to at all.
Until we're able to find another way out of here, those people who can't go back home... where should we go?
Do we know that people who are dead can't go home? I mean, I know we've been assuming it, but... I've been wondering for a while if that's really true. We weren't ever told it for a fact, were we? So...
[he trails off. when he speaks again, he sounds more hesitant.]
I don't... have a good answer. I can't pretend that I do. But pledging allegiance to this Hell forever and turning yourself into a demon? That can't be the only option. If there's only one viable choice, then... the way Heaven's been framing this, the way they've set things up... it doesn't make any sense. I don't trust them either, but... you can't ask people to have "faith" in a choice that would never actually...
Maybe someday we'll be able to. Until then, I think we're all doing our best with what we have to work with.
I can understand the logic of choosing Hell for the purpose of trying to dismantle the system from the inside, or making a wish that could improve the lives of others. Like, for example, if I had the power to make the games easier, so nobody had to suffer so much in a place that would otherwise be a paradise, I would. Especially if I can't go home anyway. Right now my options appear to be an eternity in a cage where we all have to kill each other for someone else's amusement, or an eternity where I could actually be of some good to someone, trying to prevent stuff like this from happening to others.
[shrug]
Not that I've had the opportunity to choose anything so far anyway. Just that I understand why someone would make that choice, in the absence of better options.
I don't really trust Heaven or Hell. But I trust you, and Intensity. I want to help find another way out of here. If becoming a demon means I can help open a door for others to escape through, I'd willing to consider it.
Even if we're the first people to be here in a group, we're not the first people Hell's done this to. So it can't be the first time someone's thought, "I'll dismantle the system from inside." And every time someone's actually worked with Hell... they've been changed. How do we know that's not going to happen? Maybe the moment you graduate and leave here, you'd stop wanting to help people.
[scrubs at his eyes with the hem of his sleeve.]
... I'm sorry. I don't want to make you feel like you're even more trapped! I guess I just... if we knew that you could be of some good to someone by making that choice, I might feel differently, but...
Oh yeah... that's a good point, that it's probably been tried before.
Sorry! If I sound ignorant, it's because I am. I hadn't even heard of Hell until after I got here. I'm trying to get up to speed, though. [He pulls a book out of his bag just enough that Anubis can see the title.]
No, you don't sound ignorant at all! And the stuff you brought up is important to take into consideration. It's... just a complicated issue.
I don't know how much help I'd be, but if you're ever confused about something relating to-- I guess, the mythology of Hell? Demonology, that kind of thing... feel free to ask. I didn't realize that you didn't know, but a lot of people are in the same boat as you.
Are you serious? That would be a huge help, actually. Aradia loaned me a book on demonology but it was too advanced for me, since it assumed a level of familiarity with a lot of concepts already. I had to try and find something more basic to start with. This one that I'm reading is filling in some of the mythology in general, but doesn't have much that's very useful for me on the topics of either Heaven or Hell, which doesn't help me much.
So if you don't mind helping me out sometime, or even helping me find books that can explain things at a level I can understand, I'd be really grateful. Thank you!
Yeah, it’s not a problem at all. The book you have probably deals more with concrete history and practice, right? You have to realize that what we’re dealing with is, um. It’s old occult beliefs and superstitions that have almost nothing to do with mainstream modern Christianity, as far as I know.
...Oh, shoot. No wonder this wasn't explaining anything.
Alright, so what I know so far is that Heaven and Hell are realms you go to after death, according to how you behaved in life. There is one single god, and he lives in Heaven, along with angels, which are his.... servants? I guess? But the ones that disobeyed him were turned into demons and sent to live in Hell to live amongst the damned.
I'm pretty shaky on everything overall, but mostly I don't really know much about the demon princes, or the various Hells or their factions. I'm also pretty unclear about Heaven and the war between it and Hell. Or what it means to be a demon or an angel. Or really anything.
I know that's kind of a broad place to start, but if you have any information that could illuminate any of those subjects, I'd like to learn.
[takes a deep breath, kind of visibly shifting mental gears as he shifts sitting positions into something crosslegged.]
Okay! Here we go. You're more or less correct! "God" in this tradition is the creator. He made everything. But he also has an adversary, Satan or "the Devil." Actually, originally, the two weren't opposed -- the satan's role was to, um, more or less test people by doing bad things, and it was probably the influence of another religion called Zoroastrianism that-- well, actually, that doesn't matter. It's off-topic and we're talking about reality instead of how mythology developed.
So, you've got God, who's good and all-powerful, and the Devil, who's evil. The Devil may or may not be the same figure as Lucifer, who once was an angel. Here's how that story goes.
Angels were created by God as his messengers and servants. When God created humans, he made them in his image, and gave them dominion over the world. Most importantly, he gave them free will. Angels weren't supposed to have that. Disobeying God was unthinkable for them... supposedly. But when God told the angels to bow before the humans, Lucifer refused. His pride wouldn't let him do otherwise. So he started a rebellion. It failed, of course, and Lucifer and the angels who followed him were cast out of Heaven and God's presence -- the worst possible punishment.
Traditionally, Heaven is portrayed as being above the human world, and Hell below. So when an angel is forced from Heaven, they "fall" and become a "fallen angel." They're sometimes seen as different from just "demons," even though they both exist in Hell. It's the difference between someone like Exael, who's almost definitely a fallen angel or really wants us to think she is, and Mukuro, who seems to have been human before he became a demon. I don't think humans can become angels, but I could be wrong -- they can in some traditions, but that seems to be a more modern invention.
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rollwillpowercheck) wrote2018-12-03 06:11 pm
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[he speaks a little hesitantly, like he's not sure about his phrasing.]
Um... at the beginning, he was very warm. He could be slow to catch on to some kinds of things, and he was pretty self-conscious, so it was fun to tease him. He'd get really flustered and prickly. But he really cared about sensitIV a lot, and he was protective of us. He didn't see anything wrong with playing mercilessly in games as long as it meant that we didn't get hurt, so I'd argue with him about that. It all came from a good place, though.
Things started going downhill-- well, the inciting incident was probably the House of Mirth. It hit all of us really hard. I think... there were a lot of things that came together in the weeks afterwards to make him feel-- no, I can't speak for him. Maybe he'd always held grudges, but if so, they hadn't really affected us? They started to, though, even in games. The protectiveness became a problem, too. He wouldn't ever talk to me about his feelings, and when I'd confront him about his actions he'd just say that I expected too much from him, because I was a good person and he wasn't.
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Yeah, a lot of that does sound like Leviathan. Especially the protectiveness. I met him on his first day here and he already had the vibe about him that suggested he was ready to throw down to defend himself and sensitIV. He considered getting the wound-unwinding power as his first one, but I talked him into doing hand-to-hand combat training with me instead, so he could feel capable of protecting himself without resorting to... that.
Unlike Loki, though, I don't think he sees himself as a bad person. I think he can still be reasoned with, and he still wants to do right by you.
...I think it's gonna take him a lot of work to overcome his social programming, and he's probably going to mess up a lot along the way, but I really do think he's trying.
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You can dislike a person's actions without disliking the person, right?
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You definitely can. Sometimes it just gets rough trying to balance that. But... Levi-san isn't there yet.
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[stares out at the lake for a moment, lost in thought.
....Then he takes a bite of his sandwich]
How are you doing, with Loki graduating and all?
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... not great. I guess I'm treating it as him being gone from my life for good. Breaking off the relationship. Because, I mean, even if I could see him again, I'm... not sure I'd want to. So I'm sad for the way things used to be, and part of me keeps wondering if there's more I could have done to-- I don't know. Prevent this outcome. Change things, somehow.
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He's against choosing "Heaven" on principle because he's a demon in his world, which is stupid because "Heaven" is apparently just a different faction of demons. And he's convinced that he can overthrow Asmodeus from inside the system. But given the way the graduation ceremony went...
[stares down at the ground.]
I feel like it was mostly about Yasuragi.
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...Is that a bad reason?
They love each other, right?
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Yasuragi's an asshole. I don't like the pattern of him doing things to upset people and then Loki-san feeling like he has to defend him-- I just don't like him. I don't think he purposefully lied about loving Loki-san or anything like that, but I also don't trust him to not hurt him.
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Which part bothers you more: that Loki chose Hell or that he's with Yasuragi?
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I don't know. They feel like part of the same problem, I guess.
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Of course I would. It's giving Hell what they want most -- more recruits.
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...There are a lot of people here for whom Heaven's option is not viable, for various reasons. Some have already died back where they're from, so if they go back to "their world, as they left it," it may just mean dying again, forever. And some people, like me, have a home worse than here, or don't have a home to return to at all.
Until we're able to find another way out of here, those people who can't go back home... where should we go?
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Do we know that people who are dead can't go home? I mean, I know we've been assuming it, but... I've been wondering for a while if that's really true. We weren't ever told it for a fact, were we? So...
[he trails off. when he speaks again, he sounds more hesitant.]
I don't... have a good answer. I can't pretend that I do. But pledging allegiance to this Hell forever and turning yourself into a demon? That can't be the only option. If there's only one viable choice, then... the way Heaven's been framing this, the way they've set things up... it doesn't make any sense. I don't trust them either, but... you can't ask people to have "faith" in a choice that would never actually...
I don't know. I wish I could just ask.
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I can understand the logic of choosing Hell for the purpose of trying to dismantle the system from the inside, or making a wish that could improve the lives of others. Like, for example, if I had the power to make the games easier, so nobody had to suffer so much in a place that would otherwise be a paradise, I would. Especially if I can't go home anyway. Right now my options appear to be an eternity in a cage where we all have to kill each other for someone else's amusement, or an eternity where I could actually be of some good to someone, trying to prevent stuff like this from happening to others.
[shrug]
Not that I've had the opportunity to choose anything so far anyway. Just that I understand why someone would make that choice, in the absence of better options.
I don't really trust Heaven or Hell. But I trust you, and Intensity. I want to help find another way out of here. If becoming a demon means I can help open a door for others to escape through, I'd willing to consider it.
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[scrubs at his eyes with the hem of his sleeve.]
... I'm sorry. I don't want to make you feel like you're even more trapped! I guess I just... if we knew that you could be of some good to someone by making that choice, I might feel differently, but...
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Sorry! If I sound ignorant, it's because I am. I hadn't even heard of Hell until after I got here. I'm trying to get up to speed, though. [He pulls a book out of his bag just enough that Anubis can see the title.]
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No, you don't sound ignorant at all! And the stuff you brought up is important to take into consideration. It's... just a complicated issue.
I don't know how much help I'd be, but if you're ever confused about something relating to-- I guess, the mythology of Hell? Demonology, that kind of thing... feel free to ask. I didn't realize that you didn't know, but a lot of people are in the same boat as you.
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So if you don't mind helping me out sometime, or even helping me find books that can explain things at a level I can understand, I'd be really grateful. Thank you!
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Alright, so what I know so far is that Heaven and Hell are realms you go to after death, according to how you behaved in life. There is one single god, and he lives in Heaven, along with angels, which are his.... servants? I guess? But the ones that disobeyed him were turned into demons and sent to live in Hell to live amongst the damned.
I'm pretty shaky on everything overall, but mostly I don't really know much about the demon princes, or the various Hells or their factions. I'm also pretty unclear about Heaven and the war between it and Hell. Or what it means to be a demon or an angel. Or really anything.
I know that's kind of a broad place to start, but if you have any information that could illuminate any of those subjects, I'd like to learn.
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Okay! Here we go. You're more or less correct! "God" in this tradition is the creator. He made everything. But he also has an adversary, Satan or "the Devil." Actually, originally, the two weren't opposed -- the satan's role was to, um, more or less test people by doing bad things, and it was probably the influence of another religion called Zoroastrianism that-- well, actually, that doesn't matter. It's off-topic and we're talking about reality instead of how mythology developed.
So, you've got God, who's good and all-powerful, and the Devil, who's evil. The Devil may or may not be the same figure as Lucifer, who once was an angel. Here's how that story goes.
Angels were created by God as his messengers and servants. When God created humans, he made them in his image, and gave them dominion over the world. Most importantly, he gave them free will. Angels weren't supposed to have that. Disobeying God was unthinkable for them... supposedly. But when God told the angels to bow before the humans, Lucifer refused. His pride wouldn't let him do otherwise. So he started a rebellion. It failed, of course, and Lucifer and the angels who followed him were cast out of Heaven and God's presence -- the worst possible punishment.
Traditionally, Heaven is portrayed as being above the human world, and Hell below. So when an angel is forced from Heaven, they "fall" and become a "fallen angel." They're sometimes seen as different from just "demons," even though they both exist in Hell. It's the difference between someone like Exael, who's almost definitely a fallen angel or really wants us to think she is, and Mukuro, who seems to have been human before he became a demon. I don't think humans can become angels, but I could be wrong -- they can in some traditions, but that seems to be a more modern invention.
Does that make sense so far?
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