...There are a lot of people here for whom Heaven's option is not viable, for various reasons. Some have already died back where they're from, so if they go back to "their world, as they left it," it may just mean dying again, forever. And some people, like me, have a home worse than here, or don't have a home to return to at all.
Until we're able to find another way out of here, those people who can't go back home... where should we go?
Do we know that people who are dead can't go home? I mean, I know we've been assuming it, but... I've been wondering for a while if that's really true. We weren't ever told it for a fact, were we? So...
[he trails off. when he speaks again, he sounds more hesitant.]
I don't... have a good answer. I can't pretend that I do. But pledging allegiance to this Hell forever and turning yourself into a demon? That can't be the only option. If there's only one viable choice, then... the way Heaven's been framing this, the way they've set things up... it doesn't make any sense. I don't trust them either, but... you can't ask people to have "faith" in a choice that would never actually...
Maybe someday we'll be able to. Until then, I think we're all doing our best with what we have to work with.
I can understand the logic of choosing Hell for the purpose of trying to dismantle the system from the inside, or making a wish that could improve the lives of others. Like, for example, if I had the power to make the games easier, so nobody had to suffer so much in a place that would otherwise be a paradise, I would. Especially if I can't go home anyway. Right now my options appear to be an eternity in a cage where we all have to kill each other for someone else's amusement, or an eternity where I could actually be of some good to someone, trying to prevent stuff like this from happening to others.
[shrug]
Not that I've had the opportunity to choose anything so far anyway. Just that I understand why someone would make that choice, in the absence of better options.
I don't really trust Heaven or Hell. But I trust you, and Intensity. I want to help find another way out of here. If becoming a demon means I can help open a door for others to escape through, I'd willing to consider it.
Even if we're the first people to be here in a group, we're not the first people Hell's done this to. So it can't be the first time someone's thought, "I'll dismantle the system from inside." And every time someone's actually worked with Hell... they've been changed. How do we know that's not going to happen? Maybe the moment you graduate and leave here, you'd stop wanting to help people.
[scrubs at his eyes with the hem of his sleeve.]
... I'm sorry. I don't want to make you feel like you're even more trapped! I guess I just... if we knew that you could be of some good to someone by making that choice, I might feel differently, but...
Oh yeah... that's a good point, that it's probably been tried before.
Sorry! If I sound ignorant, it's because I am. I hadn't even heard of Hell until after I got here. I'm trying to get up to speed, though. [He pulls a book out of his bag just enough that Anubis can see the title.]
No, you don't sound ignorant at all! And the stuff you brought up is important to take into consideration. It's... just a complicated issue.
I don't know how much help I'd be, but if you're ever confused about something relating to-- I guess, the mythology of Hell? Demonology, that kind of thing... feel free to ask. I didn't realize that you didn't know, but a lot of people are in the same boat as you.
Are you serious? That would be a huge help, actually. Aradia loaned me a book on demonology but it was too advanced for me, since it assumed a level of familiarity with a lot of concepts already. I had to try and find something more basic to start with. This one that I'm reading is filling in some of the mythology in general, but doesn't have much that's very useful for me on the topics of either Heaven or Hell, which doesn't help me much.
So if you don't mind helping me out sometime, or even helping me find books that can explain things at a level I can understand, I'd be really grateful. Thank you!
Yeah, it’s not a problem at all. The book you have probably deals more with concrete history and practice, right? You have to realize that what we’re dealing with is, um. It’s old occult beliefs and superstitions that have almost nothing to do with mainstream modern Christianity, as far as I know.
...Oh, shoot. No wonder this wasn't explaining anything.
Alright, so what I know so far is that Heaven and Hell are realms you go to after death, according to how you behaved in life. There is one single god, and he lives in Heaven, along with angels, which are his.... servants? I guess? But the ones that disobeyed him were turned into demons and sent to live in Hell to live amongst the damned.
I'm pretty shaky on everything overall, but mostly I don't really know much about the demon princes, or the various Hells or their factions. I'm also pretty unclear about Heaven and the war between it and Hell. Or what it means to be a demon or an angel. Or really anything.
I know that's kind of a broad place to start, but if you have any information that could illuminate any of those subjects, I'd like to learn.
[takes a deep breath, kind of visibly shifting mental gears as he shifts sitting positions into something crosslegged.]
Okay! Here we go. You're more or less correct! "God" in this tradition is the creator. He made everything. But he also has an adversary, Satan or "the Devil." Actually, originally, the two weren't opposed -- the satan's role was to, um, more or less test people by doing bad things, and it was probably the influence of another religion called Zoroastrianism that-- well, actually, that doesn't matter. It's off-topic and we're talking about reality instead of how mythology developed.
So, you've got God, who's good and all-powerful, and the Devil, who's evil. The Devil may or may not be the same figure as Lucifer, who once was an angel. Here's how that story goes.
Angels were created by God as his messengers and servants. When God created humans, he made them in his image, and gave them dominion over the world. Most importantly, he gave them free will. Angels weren't supposed to have that. Disobeying God was unthinkable for them... supposedly. But when God told the angels to bow before the humans, Lucifer refused. His pride wouldn't let him do otherwise. So he started a rebellion. It failed, of course, and Lucifer and the angels who followed him were cast out of Heaven and God's presence -- the worst possible punishment.
Traditionally, Heaven is portrayed as being above the human world, and Hell below. So when an angel is forced from Heaven, they "fall" and become a "fallen angel." They're sometimes seen as different from just "demons," even though they both exist in Hell. It's the difference between someone like Exael, who's almost definitely a fallen angel or really wants us to think she is, and Mukuro, who seems to have been human before he became a demon. I don't think humans can become angels, but I could be wrong -- they can in some traditions, but that seems to be a more modern invention.
[This is actually a LOT of information he didn't know, so before the end of Anubis' first paragraph, he yanked his notebook out of his bag and furiously started taking notes]
Meanwhile, humans! This is where we get into even more weird free will and power dynamic stuff. God created the first man and woman, Adam and Lilith, and put them in the Garden of Eden. In the garden, they had everything they needed, and everything was peaceful. It was a paradise. There was a problem, though: Lilith refused to submit to her husband. She knew one of God's secret names, and used it to escape from the Garden and go off and do her own thing and became a demon. So when God created the second human woman, he created her from Adam's rib, ensuring that as part of him, Eve would naturally be subservient.
I said earlier that humans were given dominion over everything. That's not quite true. They were forbidden to eat fruit from one tree: the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. What happened with that is probably in your book, but it's worth noting that the serpent in the story is often seen as Satan, Lucifer, or another demon.
So that's what demons do. They tempt people to disobey God. They look for weaknesses, and they whisper in your ear, wouldn't it be okay if you did this one thing? It can't be that bad. Go ahead. Just one bite.
[pauses for a second, taking a breath and folding his hands in lap.]
Over the centuries, various people have come up with rankings of both demons and angels as a way to organize them. It's pretty common to assign demon princes governance over a deadly sin and archangels over a cardinal virtue -- there are seven of each. It seems like the one this version of Hell uses is one where each prince governs a type of sinner instead. Unsurprisingly, angels are usually seen as working together. Their divisions are more like, um, different departments in a company who are all working towards the same goal under a strong CEO. But demons... well, I mean, we know for a fact that they have squabbling factions all grasping at power.
What I want to know is: where's the Devil? Satan, Lucifer, whoever. Who organized Hell's divisions in the first place? We don't know. What we do know is that God is missing or dead. So... there's potential power vacuums all over the place. If the "Heaven" faction of demons wants to become real Heaven, wouldn't that make sense? We know Asmodeus is a relatively new prince, but what if the reason he's interested in suddenly targeting so many souls at once isn't just because his faction is new and has a high turnover rate?
There's something big behind the scenes here, we just don't know what it is yet. Exael compared our situation to the story of Job, which should be in your book, too.
[Taking notes as fast as possible, since just about all of this is new information. He's also scribbling down lots of questions, then striking them back off as Anubis answers them. There are still quite a few left, though.]
The story of Job was that God and Satan had a bet about Job's loyalty. Satan tortured Job relentlessly and took everything good out of his life, but Job never lost faith, and was rewarded at the end of the trial. Is that right?
If our situation is similar... I can understand the torture part, but what are we supposed to have faith in? That if we just sit tight, God will come and rescue us?
Good question. Sort of? Faith is such a vague word, religiously... I think the implication is that if we don't give in to what Asmodeus' faction wants and take the easy routes to end our suffering, we'll be rewarded in the end. We'll pass the test. It seems pretty reductionist, given what we know now about Pythia. Or, I guess, how much we don't know.
Pythia is Exael's boss. The leader of the "Heaven" faction, as far as we know. I think she's probably the one that answered when HSS asked for help when everyone was turning grey, but I don't have any proof.
There should be nine princes, if it corresponds properly to the hierarchy it seems to so far... Pythia is liars, Belial is inventors of evil things, Asmodeus is spirits of vengeance, Mammon is tempters. Those are the ones we know for sure.
We have some pretty good guesses based on Barrett's classifications in The Magus, but I haven't memorized them all. One is "purveyors of pestilence" and one is sorcerers, though. I remember that much.
Oh! I remember reading something about that in the Bible, when I first got here. A friend and I were trying to figure out what Heaven and Hell were.
I remember seeing sorcery listed as a sin, too, because it struck us both as strange, since magic is a gift from the gods where we're from. Seemed backwards.
I remember... mmm.. the cowardly, and ...the faithless? And "sexually immoral," whatever that means. Do those sound like the same ones you're talking about?
Well, if magic is a gift from other gods -- or beings pretending to be gods, from a Christian perspective -- a followers of the singular "true" God would see that as sinful, right? Even if it's helpful. It doesn't really make sense to me either, but there's a weird logic to it.
Those are all definitely sins, but I'm not sure if they're the ones under this particular classification... ah, Asmodeus is the demon in charge of lust under the classifications that use the seven deadly sins, though!
Oh... Yeah, I guess that would make sense that Christianity would reject magic from other gods, I guess...? [But then why wouldn't THIS god give everyone magic, instead? ?????? well, whatever.]
Shoot, I didn't realize there were multiple classifications of sins. I don't know what all the sins are. Or the classifications, for that matter. Is that important?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rollwillpowercheck) wrote2018-12-03 06:11 pm
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Of course I would. It's giving Hell what they want most -- more recruits.
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...There are a lot of people here for whom Heaven's option is not viable, for various reasons. Some have already died back where they're from, so if they go back to "their world, as they left it," it may just mean dying again, forever. And some people, like me, have a home worse than here, or don't have a home to return to at all.
Until we're able to find another way out of here, those people who can't go back home... where should we go?
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Do we know that people who are dead can't go home? I mean, I know we've been assuming it, but... I've been wondering for a while if that's really true. We weren't ever told it for a fact, were we? So...
[he trails off. when he speaks again, he sounds more hesitant.]
I don't... have a good answer. I can't pretend that I do. But pledging allegiance to this Hell forever and turning yourself into a demon? That can't be the only option. If there's only one viable choice, then... the way Heaven's been framing this, the way they've set things up... it doesn't make any sense. I don't trust them either, but... you can't ask people to have "faith" in a choice that would never actually...
I don't know. I wish I could just ask.
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I can understand the logic of choosing Hell for the purpose of trying to dismantle the system from the inside, or making a wish that could improve the lives of others. Like, for example, if I had the power to make the games easier, so nobody had to suffer so much in a place that would otherwise be a paradise, I would. Especially if I can't go home anyway. Right now my options appear to be an eternity in a cage where we all have to kill each other for someone else's amusement, or an eternity where I could actually be of some good to someone, trying to prevent stuff like this from happening to others.
[shrug]
Not that I've had the opportunity to choose anything so far anyway. Just that I understand why someone would make that choice, in the absence of better options.
I don't really trust Heaven or Hell. But I trust you, and Intensity. I want to help find another way out of here. If becoming a demon means I can help open a door for others to escape through, I'd willing to consider it.
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[scrubs at his eyes with the hem of his sleeve.]
... I'm sorry. I don't want to make you feel like you're even more trapped! I guess I just... if we knew that you could be of some good to someone by making that choice, I might feel differently, but...
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Sorry! If I sound ignorant, it's because I am. I hadn't even heard of Hell until after I got here. I'm trying to get up to speed, though. [He pulls a book out of his bag just enough that Anubis can see the title.]
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No, you don't sound ignorant at all! And the stuff you brought up is important to take into consideration. It's... just a complicated issue.
I don't know how much help I'd be, but if you're ever confused about something relating to-- I guess, the mythology of Hell? Demonology, that kind of thing... feel free to ask. I didn't realize that you didn't know, but a lot of people are in the same boat as you.
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So if you don't mind helping me out sometime, or even helping me find books that can explain things at a level I can understand, I'd be really grateful. Thank you!
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Alright, so what I know so far is that Heaven and Hell are realms you go to after death, according to how you behaved in life. There is one single god, and he lives in Heaven, along with angels, which are his.... servants? I guess? But the ones that disobeyed him were turned into demons and sent to live in Hell to live amongst the damned.
I'm pretty shaky on everything overall, but mostly I don't really know much about the demon princes, or the various Hells or their factions. I'm also pretty unclear about Heaven and the war between it and Hell. Or what it means to be a demon or an angel. Or really anything.
I know that's kind of a broad place to start, but if you have any information that could illuminate any of those subjects, I'd like to learn.
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Okay! Here we go. You're more or less correct! "God" in this tradition is the creator. He made everything. But he also has an adversary, Satan or "the Devil." Actually, originally, the two weren't opposed -- the satan's role was to, um, more or less test people by doing bad things, and it was probably the influence of another religion called Zoroastrianism that-- well, actually, that doesn't matter. It's off-topic and we're talking about reality instead of how mythology developed.
So, you've got God, who's good and all-powerful, and the Devil, who's evil. The Devil may or may not be the same figure as Lucifer, who once was an angel. Here's how that story goes.
Angels were created by God as his messengers and servants. When God created humans, he made them in his image, and gave them dominion over the world. Most importantly, he gave them free will. Angels weren't supposed to have that. Disobeying God was unthinkable for them... supposedly. But when God told the angels to bow before the humans, Lucifer refused. His pride wouldn't let him do otherwise. So he started a rebellion. It failed, of course, and Lucifer and the angels who followed him were cast out of Heaven and God's presence -- the worst possible punishment.
Traditionally, Heaven is portrayed as being above the human world, and Hell below. So when an angel is forced from Heaven, they "fall" and become a "fallen angel." They're sometimes seen as different from just "demons," even though they both exist in Hell. It's the difference between someone like Exael, who's almost definitely a fallen angel or really wants us to think she is, and Mukuro, who seems to have been human before he became a demon. I don't think humans can become angels, but I could be wrong -- they can in some traditions, but that seems to be a more modern invention.
Does that make sense so far?
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So far so good!
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I said earlier that humans were given dominion over everything. That's not quite true. They were forbidden to eat fruit from one tree: the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. What happened with that is probably in your book, but it's worth noting that the serpent in the story is often seen as Satan, Lucifer, or another demon.
So that's what demons do. They tempt people to disobey God. They look for weaknesses, and they whisper in your ear, wouldn't it be okay if you did this one thing? It can't be that bad. Go ahead. Just one bite.
[pauses for a second, taking a breath and folding his hands in lap.]
Over the centuries, various people have come up with rankings of both demons and angels as a way to organize them. It's pretty common to assign demon princes governance over a deadly sin and archangels over a cardinal virtue -- there are seven of each. It seems like the one this version of Hell uses is one where each prince governs a type of sinner instead. Unsurprisingly, angels are usually seen as working together. Their divisions are more like, um, different departments in a company who are all working towards the same goal under a strong CEO. But demons... well, I mean, we know for a fact that they have squabbling factions all grasping at power.
What I want to know is: where's the Devil? Satan, Lucifer, whoever. Who organized Hell's divisions in the first place? We don't know. What we do know is that God is missing or dead. So... there's potential power vacuums all over the place. If the "Heaven" faction of demons wants to become real Heaven, wouldn't that make sense? We know Asmodeus is a relatively new prince, but what if the reason he's interested in suddenly targeting so many souls at once isn't just because his faction is new and has a high turnover rate?
There's something big behind the scenes here, we just don't know what it is yet. Exael compared our situation to the story of Job, which should be in your book, too.
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The story of Job was that God and Satan had a bet about Job's loyalty. Satan tortured Job relentlessly and took everything good out of his life, but Job never lost faith, and was rewarded at the end of the trial. Is that right?
If our situation is similar... I can understand the torture part, but what are we supposed to have faith in? That if we just sit tight, God will come and rescue us?
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You said each prince governs a different type of sinner... What are the different types? How many princes are there?
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There should be nine princes, if it corresponds properly to the hierarchy it seems to so far... Pythia is liars, Belial is inventors of evil things, Asmodeus is spirits of vengeance, Mammon is tempters. Those are the ones we know for sure.
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[shrugs]
I don't know. And I don't know what counts as "new" to a demon.
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I remember seeing sorcery listed as a sin, too, because it struck us both as strange, since magic is a gift from the gods where we're from. Seemed backwards.
I remember... mmm.. the cowardly, and ...the faithless? And "sexually immoral," whatever that means. Do those sound like the same ones you're talking about?
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Those are all definitely sins, but I'm not sure if they're the ones under this particular classification... ah, Asmodeus is the demon in charge of lust under the classifications that use the seven deadly sins, though!
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Shoot, I didn't realize there were multiple classifications of sins. I don't know what all the sins are. Or the classifications, for that matter. Is that important?
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